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[sumayya]

As we discuss this let us also discuss the importance of saff. Why do people do saff? What is its importance?

i was wondering the same thing? i heard its the way the iranians mourn or something but im not entirely sure. could someone please explain the significance of saff and how it came about?

*sniparoo*

[Muhammad Mahdi]

I have no objection to zanjir and matam. I have seen matam being done whilst majlis is recited. I like this matam. However, what I am against is that after the majlis, most of the people forget the message and just do matam for the sake of doing it. Grief should not be shown in even beats of matam. However the matam done in our mosques is done with awhas in orderly beats which removes all the feelings and makes it a habit. If matam is done with feelings its ok but it shoulnt be done as a habbit.

The same is the case with zanjeer. This Ashura night after the majlis as I was leaving, I saw some people coming in the mosque not the least bit looking sad, carrying zanjeers. They missed the majlis and came to the mosque just do to zanjeer. Is this what Imam Hussayn gave his life for? Did he want matam and zanjeer?

About saf I dont understand. What the use of dancing round the alams? Its a kind of disrespect to the great personalities these alams are attached to.

[sumayya]

If matam is done with feelings its ok but it shoulnt be done as a habbit.

This Ashura ight after the majlis as I was leaving, I saw some people coming in the mosque not the least bit looking sad, carrying zanjeers. They missed the majlis and came to the mosque just do to zanjeer. Is this what Imam Hussayn gave his life for? Did he want matam and zanjeer?

Word.

You see people talking and doing matam etc. the whole point of "matam" is lost. Matam should come automatically when you are in grief.

[smak786110]

Well.I would suggest you all to keep your views to urself...
Because my principle is if you dont like it DONT DO IT !
Dont criticize others who are doing azadaris in their own ways.....DONT EVER try to criticize azadari pls ! No one knows, how much grief a person have in his heart ! It may be saaf or maat or zanjeer....Dont go on decisions just by looking at them !!!

Imam Zamaan was visitng a simple looking butcher in his area.... Can you imagine such a person seeing our Imam ???
It all depends on the person's nafs.
:) :? :?

[qarrar]

Unfortunately those who speak against Azadari, have forgotten the Hadith of our beloved Prophet (saww) who said that: "Surely, there exists in the hearts of the Mu'mineen, with respect to the martyrdom of Husain (A.S.), a heat that never subsides". (Mustadrak al-Wasail, vol. 10, pg. 318)

In another place, the Prophet (saww) said: "O' Fatimah! Every eye shall be weeping on the Day of Judgment except the eye which has shed tears over the tragedy of Husain (A.S.) for surely, that eye shall be laughing and shall be given the glad tidings of the bounties and comforts of Paradise". (Bihar al-Anwar, vol,: 44; pg,:293).

The aim of Azadari of Imam Hussein is nothing but remembering his sacrifice, learning from this sacrifice and showing our love towards Islam by emulating Imam Hussein 's sacrifice.

Life Is A Gift from Allah to Sacrifice for a Lofty Cause

Zanjeer is a way of azadari, not all can donate blood for various reasons, and the way I see it condemning one way of azadari is condemning azadari as a whole. Let people show their love for the Imam in a way they see fit, do not impose your views on them. If giving blood is your way of azadari then do it, no one will stop you nor should you stop others from performing zanjeer. Why impose your views on others, why issue these quasi fatwas, if you have knowledge at the level of ijtehad then prove your point through hadiths and traditions from our masumeens.

…what I am against is that after the majlis, most of the people forget the message and just do matam for the sake of doing it.

This Ashura night after the majlis as I was leaving, I saw some people coming in the mosque not the least bit looking sad, carrying zanjeers. They missed the majlis and came to the mosque just do to zanjeer.

What the use of dancing round the alams?

One of the Prophets companions upon seeing him hurt from the battle of Ohod took a stone and broke all his teeth in love of our beloved prophet. Unfortunately such is the state of affairs in the time of our Imam that ordinary people pass judgement on this great ibadaati.

With regards to your second paragraph quoted, why not do umrabil maaruf rather than use the actions of a few to condemn a very sacred act.

Finally in relation to your last paragraph quoted…I have never seen this been done and I am sure people from your centre I believe this would Dar will confirm that this does not happen there either.

[smak786110]

exactly ! :)

[qarrar]

The most explicit proof of self-inflicted injury comes from Owais al-Qarni the great Muslim Sahabi, praised by both Shi'a and Sunni erudite. He had an immense love for the Holy Prophet (s). When the news reached him in Yemen that two teeth of the Holy Prophet (s) were broken in the battle of Ohad, he extracted all his teeth. When the Holy Prophet (s) got the news in Medina that Owais had struck down all his teeth, he (s) exclaimed, "Indeed Owais is our devoted friend". This event can be found written in 'Seerate Halbia' vol II, page 295.

The renowned Sunni Scholar Shiekh Farid al Din Attaar in 'Tadhkhirathul Awliya' Urdu translation page 17 and 18 writes:

"Hadhrath Uways Qarni (ra) said to Hadhrath Umar Khattab (ra): 'If you were true in friendship than why on the day when the holy teeth of the Prophet (s) were broken didn't you break your teeth in companionship? Because, it is a condition of companionship.' Then he showed his teeth all of which were broken and said 'I broke all of my teeth without seeing you (O Prophet) and in the state of Ghaybah in your companionship. I had broken one tooth but couldn't get satisfaction so kept on breaking them one by one until I had broken them all '".

Zaynab[sa] was the first person who hit her forehead to a bar inside the carriage she was in, causing considerable bleeding, when the head of al-Hussain (AS) was being paraded in Kufa. This is one evidence that the shedding of blood is permissible; whether from the head or from the back etc. The infallible Imam Zayn-el-'Aabidin (AS) used to address Lady Zaynab al-Kubra (AS) by saying to her "You are al-Hamdu-Lillah an untaught scholar" - "Anti al-Hamdu-Lillah 'Alimah Ghayr Mu'allimah".

1. Bihaar al-Anwaar; volume 45, page 114,
2. Jalaa’ al-‘Oyun; volume 2, page 238,
3. Zaynab al-Kubra; page 112,
4. Asraar al-Shahadah; page 474,
5. Al-Muntakhab; volume 2, page 478,
6. Nusrat-ul-Madhlum; page 18.

‘Allamah al-Majlisi – compiler of Bihaar al-Anwaar – and Sheikh al-Shari’ah al-Isfahani have confirmed the authenticity of the report.

From another post on zanjeer in this very section...

[qarrar]

The Imam of our time Imam al-Mahdi (AS) states in his "Zeyarat al-Nahiya" addressing Imam Hussain (AS):

" . . . . now that I could not help you when you needed most help . . . I shall mourn you every morning and every evening, AND I SHALL CRY BLOOD FOR YOU INSTEAD OF TEARS . . . "

[smak786110]

QARRAR keep it up !!!

[sumayya]

Alright people im sorry for sharing my opinions with you.

However, i would like to know when zanjeer was first practiced and in which country? if anyone knows the answer to that then please let me know

[Muhammad Mahdi]

However, i would like to know when zanjeer was first practiced and in which country? if anyone knows the answer to that then please let me know

I m guessing India or Pakistan.

Qarrar you took me wrong. i am not agaainst matam or zanjeer. But it should be done with feelings. When Owais al qarni broke his teeth he didnt do it for the sake of the people or showing off.

What about saff. What is saff if not dancing round the alams?

[qarrar]

… it should be done with feelings.

When Owais al qarni broke his teeth he didnt do it for the sake of the people or showing off.

What about saff. What is saff if not dancing round the alams?

Feeling is a subjective thing…how do you judge if someone is doing it with feeling or not? Is it not for God to decide and not us humans?

In relation to your second point, it is true he did it out of love of the prophet. Azadari is also done out of love for our Imam in whatever form one chooses.

No, saff matam is not dancing around the alam or taboot. It’s a form of azadari.

[kulsham]

Its a type of azadari in which you hurt yourself because Imam Hussein was hurt......

I think its like tht man who took all his teeth of becoz he heard tht the Holy Prophet has broke his one teeth in a battle....[/quote]

awww.. so sweet..

Well, the question arises, why should you hurt yourself?

Doing azadari of Aba Abdillah(as) in whatever form be it matam, saf matam, zanjeer and or tatbir is not dhulm on oneself, denying azadari or questioning its performance is dhulm is on Aba Abdillah . His sacrifice on the day of Ashura was great and whatever little we can do to exemplify what we claim in Ziyarat e Waritha, ‘O Imam we wish we were with you on the day of Ashura’ is little.

One thing that I always bear in mind which my father had told and I have heard it from countless zakirs, that whenever a question of azadari arises, please do not give your opinion because even the most learned in our religion fail to do so in their wise and rational minds. Who are we, mere fallible mortal, with finite intellects…

[/quote]

[Muhammad Mahdi]

Saff is an insult to azadari. I am collecting some info, will post my collections later.

[smak786110]

Hmm....Waiting eagerly for the SAAF info....