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[Fatimah Zahra Karim]

Conversation moved from Holy Prophets(pbut) and Holy Imams(pbut)

Who was chosen to be the Masih by the command of ALLAH(swt), is it Imam Ali(as) or Prophet Jesus(as)?

Analysing from the choice of words and the way the sentence is phrased I would say you are getting religious doctrines mixed (i.e. Christian and Islamic). Prophet Isa was never chosen to be a messiah according to Islamic traditions, if any anyone is deserved of such a title than it should be Prophet Muhammed (saw) because it was he who was known as Rehmatul lil alameen.

Prophet Isa was never chosen to be a messiah according to Islamic traditions

I always thought that Prophet Isa was The Messiah. So i checked it out in the Quran and here's what I found...

Prophet Isa is mentioned as the Messiah a total of 11 times in 9 verses of the Qur'an. Check 3:45, 4:157,171,172, 5:17,72,75, 9:30,31

...

I always thought that Prophet Isa was The Messiah. So i checked it out in the Quran and here's what I found...Prophet Isa is mentioned as the Messiah a total of 11 times in 9 verses of the Qur'an. Check 3:45, 4:157,171,172, 5:17,72,75, 9:30,31

I was wondering where I would find the motivation to keep posting on this forum but there I have found it in your post.

Let us begin with the ordinary English meaning of messiah. The definition I have found states it is; ‘somebody regarded as or claiming to be a saviour or liberator of a country, people, or the world’. I do not deny Prophet Isa was a messiah of for the Israelites and Jews in general but what I have difficulty in understanding is that Porphet Isa was a Messiah for mankind (which is so according to Christian traditions) which he clearly wasn’t because that attribute belongs to the Last Prophet (saw).

Now lets come to those numerous ayats quotes above which state Prophet Isa as a messiah according to your reasoning.

The main ayat in question is 3:45. Excerpts from this ayat read (when translated in English), “…Masih, Isa son of Maryam…” (NOTE Masih has not been translated into English it appears the same in Arabic) now to the ordinary reader Masih translates to Messiah which is a very rudimentary interpretation of the ayat (supported by the Ahmadi school of thought). Looking at the essence and background of the ayat, it was informing Maryam of the birth of a fatherless child i.e. upholding Maryams chastity, hence the importance of the above phrase. Masih according to the interpretation of The Holy Quran by Ayatullah Aqa Haji Mirza Mahdi Puya Yazdi (1899-1973) who was renowned for his famous tafsir of the Qur'an means no more than anointed, in simpler terms appointed. This meaning for Masih fits in better with the interpretation given above that the ayat was about protecting Maryams chastity not proclaiming Isa as a messiah.

The rest of the ayats quoted just support this view and do not put forward Prophet Isa as being the appointed Messiah for mankind just reiterating his title Masih, Isa son of Maryam; protecting his mothers chastity that he was conceived by no man in that he was anointed Isa son of Maryam.

If you can put forward a more compelling tafsir which states to the contrary I would be more than willing to take a look.

[qarrar]

And since when do we (i.e. Muslims) refer to Prophet Isa as Jesus

[Fatimah Zahra Karim]

You make me laugh, qarrar

We (i.e. Muslims) refer to Prophet Isa as Jesus since we spell Muhammad as Mohammed or Muhammed and what should be 'Aliy as Ali or Aly or Ally and Waliyyullah as Valiullah...I think what we refer to P. Isa as doesn't make much of a difference so long as everyone knows who we're talking about and what we're saying.

I just have more Christian friends than Muslim friends so I'm used to calling him Jesus. I'm sure it's not a big deal.

[qarrar]

We (i.e. Muslims) refer to Prophet Isa as Jesus since we spell Muhammad as Mohammed or Muhammed and what should be 'Aliy as Ali or Aly or Ally and Waliyyullah as Valiullah...

What you describe above is just another way of spelling common names and even these have favourites depending upon which region of the world you come from.

Isa into Jesus is not such a case even though you try and justify this.

[Fatimah Zahra Karim]

I am not trying to justify anything. To me, it is just a variant spelling. Like I said before, I think it's fine so long as everyone understands who we're talking about and what we're saying.

[Esm'ail]

Asalamalaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh,
I do support Sister Karim,
And by the way Prophet Isa(A.S) al-masih is Prophet Jesus.I mean as long as its understood, and logically I can prove it to you with undoubtable proof. But unless u want me to brother qarrar.

[qarrar]

To me, it is just a variant spelling. Like I said before, I think it's fine so long as everyone understands who we're talking about and what we're saying.

It beggars belief that you claim its just variant spelling. I do sympathise with your later argument but my point is one of principle, Isa is an Islamic name whilst Jesus is not.

[Muhammad Mahdi]

Come on Qarrar.
Its just the English version of the prophet's name

[Fatimah Zahra Karim]

wa alaykum salaam

Tell me qarrar, what exactly is an Islamic name? When you say Islamic name, do you mean an Arabic name? All I've come across in ahadith is the term 'good name'...nothing about Islamic names. Any name is an Islamic name if it has a good meaning. I think since the names mean the same, they are the same and they are both Islamic.



Getting back to the real issue: Is Jesus the Messiah?

In Judaism, the Messiah (..."the Anointed One") at first meant any person who was anointed with oil on rising to a certain position among the ancient Israelites, at first that of High priest, later that of King and also that of a prophet.
(from http://www.answers.com)

I agree that the word 'Messiah' does not mean saviour the way Christians take it to mean. All that talk about sins being absolved if you are 'washed in the blood of the lamb, Jesus Christ' is contrary to Jesus' own teaching where he mentions that one must keep the commandments in order to enter eternal life(Matthew 19 :16-17). It was Paul, I think, who distorted Jesus' teaching and preached something Jesus never did

1. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith (1 Cor. 15:14).

2. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins (1 Cor. 15:17).

"…Masih, Isa son of Maryam…" (NOTE Masih has not been translated into English it appears the same in Arabic)

All the translations I went through translated the word Masih into the English Messiah.

Masih according to the interpretation of The Holy Quran by Ayatullah Aqa Haji Mirza Mahdi Puya Yazdi (1899-1973) who was renowned for his famous tafsir of the Qur'an means no more than anointed, in simpler terms appointed.

Ayatullah Yazdi also translates masih as Messiah and writes in a footnote that it means the anointed one. ie. divinely blessed. I also noted that there was no reference to any hadith explaining the meaning of 'Messiah'. He mentioned something about Jesus being father-less, like you did, but I honestly do not see what the birth of a father-less child has to do with the use of the term Messiah. The only connection I can imagine is that the Jews expected the messiah to be an ordinary person, born of ordinary parents. Since Prophet Isa was born without a father, they accused Bibi Maryam of unchastity and claimed that Prophet Isa was illegitimate. They also rejected him as Messiah. What God was doing in the Qur'an was telling the Jews 2 things...that Prophet Isa was the Messiah and that he was the Son of Bibi Maryam alone, that he had no father. Since the Messiah was supposed to be a descendant of King David (Isaiah 11:1) through P. Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10), maybe the verse "...Messiah, Son of Maryam..." was meant to show that even though Jesus did not have a father, he was a descendant of King David through Bibi Maryam .



I have been going through ahadith mentioning Prophet Isa and I found that the Prophet Muhammad (saw) and the Imams referred to Prophet Isa as Messiah several times. The fact that Allah (swt), Prophet Muhammad (saw) and the Imams called Jesus 'Messiah' is enough to prove that he is The Messiah.

Among the questions of Shàmí is that he asked the Commander of the Faithful about the six prophets who had [special] names. He said, “Yusha‘ ibn Nun (Joshua son of Nun) was Dhu al-Kifl, Ya‘qub ibn Ishàq (Jacob son of Isaac) was Isrà’íl, Khidr was Hilqiyà, Yunus (Jonah) was Dhu al-Nun, Jesus was the Messiah and Muhammad was Ahmad, may the blessings of Allah be with all of them.”
(Bihàr, 16, 90, 22)

The Jewish prophesies mention that the Messiah will be from the sons of David. This condition disqualifies Prophet Muhammad (saw) because he was not of the descendants of David . Added to that, the Prophet Muhammad (saw) never claimed the title for himself. Don't you think he would have done so if he really was The Messiah?

[qarrar]

Perhaps I am not finding the right words. Let’s see if I can clarify this by way of an example, the next time we hear that a child is named Isa why don’t we suggest he be named Jesus instead? It’s all one and the same isn’t it?

Now coming to the debacle about the ‘The Messiah’, are we agreed on my previous analysis provided below?

The definition I have found states it is; ‘somebody regarded as or claiming to be a saviour or liberator of a country, people, or the world’. I do not deny Prophet Isa was a messiah of for the Israelites and Jews in general but what I have difficulty in understanding is that Porphet Isa was a Messiah for mankind (which is so according to Christian traditions) which he clearly wasn’t because that attribute belongs to the Last Prophet (saw).

I have found this hadith which should strengthen my argument, it is reported that Imam Bàqir said, “Allah sent Prophet Isa especially to the children of Israel, and his prophecy was in Jerusalem, and after him there were twelve apostles.” (Bihàr, 14, 250).

Now coming to the second limb of my argument that it is the Last Prophet and no other that is the Saviour, Mercy and Messiah for all creatures, this is emphatically stated in Surah Al Anbiya ayat 107.

وَمَآ أَرۡسَلۡنَـٰكَ إِلَّا رَحۡمَةً۬ لِّلۡعَـٰلَمِينَ (١٠٧)

And We have sent thee (O Muhammad SAW) not save as a mercy for the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinn and all that exists). (107)

[Fatimah Zahra Karim]

...the next time we hear that a child is named Isa why don’t we suggest he be named Jesus instead?

Sure will But I think that's going to be a long wait coz Isa isn't a very popular name at the moment. Why don't we just drop this discussion? Seems useless.

The definition I have found states it is; ‘somebody regarded as or claiming to be a saviour or liberator of a country, people, or the world’. I do not deny Prophet Isa was a messiah of for the Israelites and Jews in general but what I have difficulty in understanding is that Porphet Isa was a Messiah for mankind (which is so according to Christian traditions) which he clearly wasn’t because that attribute belongs to the Last Prophet (saw).

If we accept this definition of 'messiah' then all prophets were messiahs for their people.

Despite what you claim, Allah (swt) saw it fit to confer the title 'Messiah' only upon Jeses(as). There must be a reason, right? I haven't found it yet, but I'm still looking. If I find it, I'll post it, sawa?

[Esm'ail]

Asalamalaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh,
Sawa sister Karim,
But if u know ALLAH(swt) saw it fit to confer Prophet Jesus(A.S) as the Messiah.
Why don't we muslims celebrate his birthday, and mourn the day when he was raised up to heaven by ALLAH(swt)?
While among the verses of the Holy Book, Prophet Jesus(A.S) when he was in the cradle with the help of ALLAH(swt) said, "Peace be on me the day tht I was born, peace be on me the day tht I die and peace be on me the day that I shall be raised again."
Well I guess thats enough proof to show the importance of celebrating his birthday and mourn the day when he was raised up to heaven by ALLAH(swt).

But Imam Ali surprisingly is not mentioned but still we celebrate his birthday and mourn the day he died.
Even the 11 Imams and their wives.
:?

[Fatimah Zahra Karim]

Wa alaykum salaam

Do you know when his birthday is? (I know, but do you?) And on what day he was raised to the heavens? Or are you assuming the dates are Christmas and Easter? Why do you want to mourn the day he was saved from the Jews? :? The same words are used for Prophet Yahya in 19:15 "Peace on him on day he was born, and on the day he dies, and the day he is raised to life." Should we celebrate his birthday and mourn his death also? Think about what you're suggesting...if we were to celebrate the birthday of all 124000 prophets ...

But Imam Ali surprisingly is not mentioned but still we celebrate his birthday and mourn the day he died.

I thought it has already been discussed that Imam Aly has been mentioned in the Qur'an at least 300 times. Or do you want me to start listing all those verses that I know? Trust me, it's gonna be a long list.

Even the 11 Imams and their wives.

Really Tell me which of the 11 Imams' wives' birthdays and deathdays do we commemorate?

We cannot commemorate all events so we pick the people who affect us the most-the Holy Prophet (saw), the Imams and Lady Fatimah - since The Last Prophet's (saw) is connected to us the most, and the others are the protectors and upholders of his traditions.

[qarrar]

"Peace be on me the day tht I was born, peace be on me the day tht I die and peace be on me the day that I shall be raised again."

Do provide references when quoting ayats. I’ll help you out on this one: it was Sura Maryam Ayat 33.

So you still maintain Imam Ali is not mentioned in the Quran? Would be kind enough to enlighten us who this ayat is referring to?

وَمِنَ ٱلنَّاسِ مَن يَشۡرِى نَفۡسَهُ ٱبۡتِغَآءَ مَرۡضَاتِ ٱللَّهِ‌ۗ وَٱللَّهُ رَءُوفُۢ بِٱلۡعِبَادِ

And of mankind is he who would sell himself, seeking the pleasure of Allah; and Allah hath compassion on (His) bondmen. (2:207)

[Reflection of Perfection]

Come on Ed!