Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

The sad first month of the Islamic calendar during which the family of the Holy Prophet were faced with a great ordeal and tragedy.
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Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 27 Jan 2008, 22:21

Assalamu Alaykum,

After the positive feedback on my previous writing concerning Shaykh Zayd alSalami's Friday khutba, I have decided to write yet another article, this time on some of the ways we unknowingly degrade the holy personality of Sayyida Zaynab (as).

Shaykh Zayd has written an article concerning Hz Muhsin (attached); he will inshallah write one regarding the snatching away of Bibi Zaynab's hijab. The Shaykh has given due respect to the holy lady stating that she was not totally left without a veil in Karbala!

Here, I present my views relating how we sound when we want to emphasize on wrong issues.

There are many things that we believe and recite only because we have been doing so for ages,
not having given any thought to the words or what they imply. There are some kinds of poetry that lower the status of Ahlul Bayt (as). Yet we recite them only to stir emotions!
This surely was not the purpose of Karbala. Was it?

For example, one of the most popular nauhas, "Ay mere baba jaan";

AY MERE BABAJAAN - O my dear father
HO RAHI HAI ADHAAN - Adhan is proclaiming
SAR CHUPAWU KAHAN - Where do I hide my head?

Does this mean she was like our khoja ladies, covering her head only when she went to mosque or heard Adhan?

And another one goes,

RASTE ME MUJE TERE BAZU MILE - On the way I found your hands
MAINE CHADAR SAMAJ KE WO SAR PE RAKHE - I put them on my head considering they were a veil
BAZUO SE TERA PUCHTI HUN PATAA - I am asking your hands where you are
MERE GHAAZI KAHAN HO - O ghazi where are you?

This brings us to some conflicting questions.

1. How were the hands of Al Abbas (as) found on the way, when they were cut in Karbala?

2. If the hands were found on the way as said, how come they are buried in the places they were cut?

3. What sensible person would consider hands to be a veil?

4. What kind of person would mess around with cut, bloody, mutilated hands of a martyr?

5. Who would ask the whereabouts of a person to hands?

Imagine, these are the kinds of nauha that we recited in the juloos of shabe ashoor!

What message have we given to the non Muslim public?
What message have we given to our youth?

I beg each one of us to think before we talk bout the Holy Ahlul Bayt (as) before we degrade their status, unintentionally, merely out of emotions.
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby abuali » 28 Jan 2008, 01:14

[topic subject edited. please pm me if you feel its still inappropriate]
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby qarrar » 28 Jan 2008, 02:35

You are as entitled to your views as the poet is in his when he writes those nauhas. As for the nauhas meaning, you are giving them a plain and very literal translation and interpretation.
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby Fatimah Zahra Karim » 28 Jan 2008, 07:37

Qarrar wrote:As for the nauhas meaning, you are giving them a plain and very literal translation and interpretation.
Could you give us an elaborate and non-literal translation? Please tell us what you understand by them...
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 28 Jan 2008, 14:21

You are as entitled to your views as the poet is in his when he writes those nauhas


True. Islam allows one to express one's views, however, there are boundaries that should not be crossed.
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby hasanrizvi » 30 Jan 2008, 23:14

Dear all,
Brothers and Sisters,
I request you not to discuss this issue of Nauhas,marsiya etc without having proper knowledge about it as this a very vast subject.Please i again request all to refer to Aalim before saying as this could lead to unintentional insult to any Shaer-e-ahlulbait a.s. and shaer-e-ahlebait enjoyed great status even in time of Imams. please refer to Mir Anees and Mirza Dabeer for their mastry in this Field and they were recognised by almost all Aalims in Urdu Adab and Farsi. Even Allama Zeeshan Haider Jawadi and Allama Sayyid Akhtar Rizvi were great Shaer. Actually this field is very vast and shaer do enjoy certain liberty for their imaginations, there is one full subject in Ilme-deen about it and Ulemas (many) do learn about it.
Regarding Aye mere baba jaan and the other one .... do we consider Bibi Sakina a.s. reciting or writing NO NO its shaer imagination and the whole world knows about. Regarding putting Veil or Hiding heads hair during Azaan is a respect we give to Azaan right and ahlulbait are uncomparable that is also right... this is writer's imagination and he never referred to any riwayah etc so please its not to lower the status neither can anyone do so by these Nauhas.

Brothers i humbly request we should ask to some Aalim of this field who did studied this subject and then comment.

i hope this matter is taken postivly and request will be considered by all Momeens and momenaat
wasalaam
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby qarrar » 31 Jan 2008, 02:07

Muhammad Mahdi wrote:Islam allows one to express one's views, however, there are boundaries that should not be crossed.

Could you elaborate on these boundaries then? Perhaps we are all not aware of them?
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 31 Jan 2008, 14:53

I request you not to discuss this issue of Nauhas,marsiya etc without having proper knowledge about it as this a very vast subject.


The time to sit back and accept all that our forefathers did is long gone. These acts are NOT Islamic. We do not have to sit back and say "haya haya" anymore.

as this could lead to unintentional insult to any Shaer-e-ahlulbait a.s.

Astaghfitullah. What times we have today. The ahlulbayt are abused and this is what you say! That the shaer will be insulted?

Could you elaborate on these boundaries then? Perhaps we are all not aware of them?

Islam prohibits lying and distorting the truth, or adding "salt and pepper". This is exactly what this nawha has done.

Could you please answer the questions posed in the earlier posts?

Salaams :)
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby Habari Mpya » 31 Jan 2008, 18:02

why are you taking the literal meaning of these poetic words?
We come to the english and take the literal meaning, things will look like this

Livingstone = as a ‘stone which was alive.’

or arabic for that matter
now
وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّماوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَى عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

And they have not honored Allah with the honor that is due to Him; and the whole earth shall be in His grip on the day of resurrection and the heavens rolled up in His right hand; glory be to Him, and may He be exalted above what they associate (with Him). [Shakir 39:67]

are you going to say that Allah has a right hand in which the heavens rolled up? this is poetry

فَلَمَّا أَتَاهَا نُودِي مِن شَاطِئِ الْوَادِي الْأَيْمَنِ فِي الْبُقْعَةِ الْمُبَارَكَةِ مِنَ الشَّجَرَةِ أَن يَا مُوسَى إِنِّي أَنَا اللَّهُ رَبُّ الْعَالَمِينَ

And when he came to it, a voice was uttered from the right side of the valley in the blessed spot of the bush, saying: O Musa! surely I am Allah, the Lord of the worlds. [Shakir 28:30]


Now, with this i am sure you will take it to be one of the following
1 . The bush was Allah because the voice came from the bush stating I am Allah
2. That Allah has a mouth through which He can speak
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby Fatimah Zahra Karim » 31 Jan 2008, 19:34

'living stone' may mean a stone that is living, but once you put those words together and capitalize the 1st letter thus 'Livingstone', it is, according the English grammar, understood to be a proper noun, a name, and no longer a stone that is living.

Do you know Arabic? If you do, you will have noticed that the word used in 39:67, is بِيَمِينِهِ (with the right) and not ب اليداليمينه (with the right HAND). بِيَمِينِهِ also means 'legally'.

In the case of the burning bush, it is clear that the voice came from the direction of the bush and not from the bush itself.

These things are quite literal. Of course, there are metaphorical verses as God himself attests in the Quran 3:7.
He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as allegorical verses...None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge.

So together with telling us that there are allegorical verses, God tells us that those well-founded in knowledge know the meaning of these verses so we know where to turn.

Unfortunately, these poets have not been kind enough to tell us who to ask if we do not understand what they mean. Since we cannot access them...could you please tell us what you understood?

This is a forum, right? We discuss things to understand what we can....
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby Habari Mpya » 31 Jan 2008, 20:34

That is to an english knowing person.
now a non- English speaking man will translate the name of ‘Livingstone’ as a ‘stone which was alive.’ Then he will elaborate on this theme and will try to prove that in the 19th century, stones in Europe had life, and one
of such stones had come to Africa and had travelled upto Kigoma and Ujiji in Tanzania.
[just as people who dont know urdu / german or any other language for that matter do these days]

So the true meaning and interpretation of the Holy Qur'an cannot be known except from those who are firmly grounded in knowledge and whose knowledge is from the knowledge of Prophet. Therefore, to understand the Qur'an, it is essential to seek guidance from Ahlul-Bait. [even now scholars cannot say that they have understood the Holy Qur'an completely]

As for the poety, the best person to seek help from is to ask the poet himself (or herself) as to what they meant.

A question, have you ever heard majalises (or poetry) in any other language apart english/urdu?
[some of us dont even know our own mother tongue [gujrati] and try to interpret what the speaker has said according to our own thinking]
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby Fatimah Zahra Karim » 31 Jan 2008, 23:43

The poet is an Indian/Pakistani. I think it is safe to assume that Indian/Pakistani culture has influenced him, and he is writing about what he has been hearing about. It is our responsibility to think about what we hear, and if what we hear is good, to propagate it, and if it isn't, to not.

I cannot think of any other meaning. Now you, being an urdu-understanding person, please explain to me what meaning lies behind these words. You may not be sure what the poet meant, but at least tell me what you understand that I have failed to see.

Answer to your question: Yes, have heard/read majalis and poetry in Arabic, Kiswahili and Gujaratti.
Questions for you: Why do you want to know? What difference does it make?
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby hasanrizvi » 02 Feb 2008, 18:53

I request you not to discuss this issue of Nauhas,marsiya etc without having proper knowledge about it as this a very vast subject.


The time to sit back and accept all that our forefathers did is long gone. These acts are NOT Islamic. We do not have to sit back and say "haya haya" anymore.


i am totally surprised i think u r too excited without reading the complete sentence you are trying to become Ayatullah ... these acts are NOT islamic. i would like to first read my complete sentence . First give some years to studies, i asked to read the books of Meer Anis and Mirza Dabeer do u think they were NOT islamic? Do you think you are more knowledgable than Sayeed Akhtar Rizvi who wrote so many books on various subjects, founded Bilal Muslim Mission and he was a great shaier too. Are you challenging Allama Zeeshan Haider Jawadi had u read his tafseer of quran.
Dont sit back and say "Haya haya" be sensible go to some school or Aalim ask who knows , our mind has thousands of questions and reasons but are they all.. right.
I explained you imagination is different then reality in Nauhas and Marsiya, i again want you to read Marsiyas of Meer Anees. i still want u to study a bit on this subject.

as this could lead to unintentional insult to any Shaer-e-ahlulbait a.s.

Astaghfitullah. What times we have today. The ahlulbayt are abused and this is what you say! That the shaer will be insulted?


i feel sorry for u now and your jumping to conclusions without even thinking, read again the sentence . Its not shaer its shaer-e-ahlulbait a.s.
i hope u know the difference of these two.
you are also trying to incite the feelings..."The ahlulbayt are abused" i think you mind your language .

i request the moderator to take note... i think this is shia site and such words doesnt suits by us.
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby Muhammad Mahdi » 02 Feb 2008, 22:57

i am totally surprised i think u r too excited without reading the complete sentence you are trying to become Ayatullah


No, I am not trying to become Ayatullah, (though literally I am 8)), all I am doing is applying the basic fundamentals of Islam and checking wether these actions can be justifiable.

First give some years to studies

Already given 13 years and still studying Islam...

Do you think you are more knowledgable than Sayeed Akhtar Rizvi who wrote so many books on various subjects, founded Bilal Muslim Mission and he was a great shaier too. Are you challenging Allama Zeeshan Haider Jawadi had u read his tafseer of quran.


Cool down Brother. I think you may need to go and do wudhoo :P. Never in any place did I challenge any of these personalties. (And I am getting excited) :lol:

I explained you imagination is different then reality in Nauhas and Marsiya

Lying and exaggerations are forbidden in Islam. PERIOD!

i think you mind your language

I have been abused, called wahabi, self proclaimed ayatullah, and I have remained calm. And now I am told to mind my language. Ah, the wonders of life :wink:

Regards
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Re: Do we unknowingly lower the status of Bibi Zaynab (AS)

Postby abuali » 11 Feb 2008, 23:53

In the name of Allah, the Merciful the Compassionate

With the advent of the month of Muharram grief and sorrow reappear in the hearts of all believers ranging from the Seal of the Infallibles, the Imam of the Time (may Allah hasten his reappearance) to the rest of the Muslims including the entire freedom lovers. The event of Ashura is the only immortal event of the history that will never be put into oblivion and the number of enthusiasts and lovers of Imam Husain (a.s.) is increasing as the time passes. It is therefore necessary upon his followers to make their best efforts to commemorate the event and pay further tribute to the Imam and hold more commemoration ceremonies.
What we must take notice of is that now-a-days elements such as the misguided Wahabiat sect and tyrant governments such as Israel and the US are now seeking destruction of Islam and trying to harm the religion of the holy Ahlalbayt. The Wahabis leave no stone unturned in spreading lies, slanders and statements which are anti - Quran and anti - tradition. They are making a mockery of the signs and rituals of religion including weeping and lamentation over the sorrows and sufferings of Husain bin Ali upon whom wept all the prophets from Adam to Khatam (the last prophet). They are conspiring in and out of the Islamic country of Iran with the means and equipments of the tyrants and infidelity and by way of altering the Quran and self-made interpretation of some of its holy verses and by accusing Shia of Shirk (polytheism) so as to damage its reputation and separate people from wilayat and adherence to the holy Ahlalbayt.
According to some reports, the global arrogance and the CIA have allocated a large budget for the destruction of Shia and one of their strategies for the said purpose is to temper with the Ashura lamentations (mourning rituals) and steer them in a wrong direction. What is obviously a matter of pity is that some of the followers of Imam Husain, undoubtedly those of the devoted ones are following suit and beating the same drum and are unconsciously doing what the enemies of religion want them to do. Today, Wahabiat is accusing Shia of Shirk whereas Shia has the loftiest monotheistic teachings and Ali (a.s.), Commander of the Faithful, and the great man of Tawhid is Shia's guide and leader. Why should a speaker help to this cause by reciting poems which give an odor of infidelity and Shirk (polytheism)? We have repeatedly stated that if these people cautiously and volitionally utter such words, it is considered Shirk and Shia loaths them and is sick of them.
Respected speakers Noha readers who are proud of having the success of serving the cause of Imam Husain must take such matters into consideration and let not poisonous hands place them at the mercy of their evil objectives. People should be cautious of the words and sayings of the speakers and reporters of the event of Ashura and accept only those sayings which are supported with evidence lest we should not be included by the holy verse of the Holy Quran which says, "(These are ) they whose labor is lost in this world's life and they think that they are well versed in skill of the work of hands. {18:104}"
May Allah resurrect all of us with Husain bin Ali - alaihessalam

Muhammad Fazel Lankarani
16/Feb/2005


reference: http://www.lankarani.org/eng/mes/005.html

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